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Transcript of Episode 5:

Ep 5: Trouble Saying Goodbye: Separation Feelings & Anxiety

[00:00:00] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Hi, and welcome to the Hidden Language of Children podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Kimberly Bell at the Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in Shaker Heights, Ohio. If you’ve ever wondered what’s really going on in a young child’s mind, this podcast is for you. We created it to help parents and caregivers tune into the inner life of children.

That constant churning of feelings and emotions that goes on inside every one of us. Emotions can be wonderful. They can also make us say and do things we regret. As grown ups, we know it’s important to be in control of them. Children have the same powerful feelings, without the life experience to understand or manage them.

If you think about it, the first thing that they have to learn is that those big feelings are normal. They aren’t alone in having them. At Hanna Perkins, we work with families to help children know and handle their own feelings, to become the boss of themselves. Because the sooner children learn to be [00:01:00] the master of their own feelings, the better they’ll do at all the other hard work of growing up. Today I’m welcoming Taryn Ponsky, a licensed professional clinical counselor and art therapist to talk about separation and important first step on a child’s journey to independence. It’s good to have you here, Taryn.

[00:01:19] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Thank you. It’s great to be here.

[00:01:23] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So today we are going to be talking about separation and all the things that that means.

Why don’t we get started by talking a little bit about the difference between separation anxiety and what we might call typical separation?

[00:01:42] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, I think first of all, separation anxiety is a common term that we throw around, you know, moms, dads talk about it. And the main difference I think that’s important to know is that separation anxiety is almost like one end of a spectrum.[00:02:00]

It’s the extreme we might see in a child who’s afraid to go to school or doesn’t want to leave a parent’s side. Clingy behavior that really is just expressing a lot of fear. And there are a lot of feelings there. And then the other end of the spectrum is just separation feelings, which we all experience.

So really talking about a spectrum of experience dealing with separation feelings.

[00:02:32] Dr. Kimberly Bell: OK, that’s fantastic. So let’s start with the separation feelings and maybe find our way down the spectrum as it were. What is your understanding of why that happens? Why do we have separation feelings?

[00:02:45] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, we start out really together.

We start out inside our mom. We start out as almost one. And as we go, we slowly separate from [00:03:00] this safe, protective person, and it’s a process of getting used to being a separate person. And this experience brings up a ton of emotions, you know, excitement, happiness, uh, just curiosity and also fear of the unknown, of, of the new.

And so these mixed feelings are part of the process. In this process, there’s two people or more separating from each other. So the person being left — or as Hanna Perkins says, you know, “being there to be left” — that person has those feelings too, of excitement and positivity for the, the, the being that is separating the, the child that is going out into the world, but then also sadness and, um, you know, missing feelings as Hanna Perkins uses that phrase often.

[00:03:58] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So if we can [00:04:00] imagine the toddler who has learned to walk and the mother or the parenting person, whoever that might be, is there watching their child walk away from them?

[00:04:15] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: I’m really sad just, uh, hearing you say that.

[00:04:20] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So what is the job of the parent in that moment?

[00:04:26] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah, I, well, I think the main job as a parent is if we can do — and I think every listener here is trying to do — is to become a little bit more aware, self aware of what is going on in this process. You know, it’s, I think, not often taught how to be a parent. And this is happening to the parent, to the parenting person, to the caretaker. They’re being, they’re a part of a process. They’re part of a dyad or whatever is happening there. They are [00:05:00] being left and also they’re remembering their experience through this present experience. So this is all happening, and if we can be a little bit more aware, self-aware, checking in with our feelings as it’s happening, then we can really help the child with their feelings.

[00:05:19] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So I think there are some separations that parents can get behind and can be celebratory of.

I think the first time a child walks away from them feels just as good as the first time a child walks to them. Uh, well, maybe not as good, but the walking away and the walking towards, we can cheer, we can shout, we can celebrate, we can take videos, we share it with friends. This is an accomplishment. What do you think are some of the more difficult separations for the child?

Let’s start with the child first, like maybe the nighttime one.

[00:05:55] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, we, yeah, we definitely can think about going to bed as a little [00:06:00] separation, a little goodbye, and this starts very early. So these little goodbyes happen during the day. So we talk about sleep in the beginning as a little goodbye or even as we leave out to work we’re the one leaving sometimes and the child staying or we’re dropping a child off to daycare and then eventually the child goes to school and so it’s it’s begins with Sleep, and I think it’s again a continuum and a progression

[00:06:32] Dr. Kimberly Bell: How would you describe the difference between a little goodbye and a big goodbye?

What might that be? Cause you’re like, if nighttime is a little goodbye, that it’s sort of like what, they’re in the same house together. You’re not, leaving the premises, there’s a sort of a, I mean, there’s, there can be a long time frame involved rather than what a good, a big goodbye, which I would think is going to [00:07:00] school.

[00:07:01] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah. I think that a little goodbye also feels more familiar. And I think when I think about separation, school …it is a new place. It’s so different. So the child who’s going to bed is in their bed. They’re familiar. And they’re in their house and a, a new school, there are so many new things. There’s so much that’s unknown that would bring up separation feelings, fear, you know, and there’s a new teacher.

So that we talk about a lot at Hanna Perkins, that the teacher is the new, in a way, parenting person at school. So you’re introducing this new parenting person or this new guide and caretaker, and that’s a new relationship. So more new things for a child’s new, you know, a new space, new people, new kids, and [00:08:00] that’s going to bring up the A lot of feelings.

[00:08:02] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So going into these new environments with new people and in addition to that, the parent person isn’t there to help with all of these new experiences, which I think we should maybe talk about two-way feelings here for a minute because in every separation, there’s the “I want to” and the “I don’t want to.”

And so it’s the excitement of the wanting to walk away. And then that moment of pausing and turning around and looking to make sure that the parenting person has, is there to be left. And let’s talk about that moment for a minute.

[00:08:44] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: It’s a really important moment that you just described.

I think there’s so much safety in that. Uh, there’s a groundedness you’re describing and being there to be left. There’s a stability in that, that [00:09:00] I can go out and I can come back. I have something to come back to. If I’m a little scared, I’ll just come back. I know Hanna Perkins talks about the toddler and how the toddler you’ll see kind of toddle away and turn around and look.

Is the parent still there? You know, there’s a teasing running away, but there’s, it’s, it’s only fun if you can look back and see that there’s so much to run away from. So that whole experience of being there as a stabilizing force is, it creates the safety amidst this fear of the unknown.

It’s that stable. person to be left. So it’s a little bit slower of a process and you know where that stable person is waiting as you go into the room. “I’m here. I’m waiting. You know, you just get to know this place and I’m still here.” Uh, and then that idea of it becomes a part of your mind. It’s like, you know that that’s a safe, stable thing to rely on.

[00:09:59] Dr. Kimberly Bell: [00:10:00] One of the unusual things that we do at Hanna Perkins, um, just to kind of get people up to, up to speed here is we have a separation process for the kids who come to our school.

And the parents start by being in the room with them , then they go and they sit in the waiting room for some days. And then they do this thing that I love, which is going for a walk. Which is when the parent comes and says goodbye to the child, and then they wave at the window, and then the parent leaves for a half hour, and then they come back and they reunite.

Um, let’s talk about the experience of, first of all, the learning that the parent always comes back, um, through this process of repetition, but let’s also talk about the purpose of the parenting person first being in the room, whether that’s through a visit to the school, whether that’s through [00:11:00] a separation process.

Let’s talk about what that means.

[00:11:04] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: There’s familiarity created when the parenting person goes into the new place with the child. That they experience this new place together in a way gives it a sense of safety. We’ve been here together. We, we met this place together and it’s familiar.

So coming into that new room with the child and kind of walking around and looking at things, it’s almost like you’re making your mark on this space. And then the child has memories of being in the room together with the parent. It’s not as strange or, uh, unfamiliar.

And I think you can use this in so many other ways in life. It’s not only in a separation class, a situation with class, but any space that you’re going to new with a child, you could go in there together and you’re kind of experiencing it together, making your mark in there together. And [00:12:00] it, it really familiarizes it for the child.

[00:12:04] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And so let’s talk about this idea of the parent giving the child permission to have a relationship with a teacher. What are your thoughts about that?

[00:12:13] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, it reminds me of the mixed feelings, you know, the ambivalence. And I think that’s what Hanna Perkins does really well is that it, it really holds that there’s two-way feelings about everything.

And there’s two-way feelings for the parent AND there’s two-way feelings for the child — that they want to go to school, but they’re going to miss their parent; and the parent wants the child to go to school, but is going to miss them too. And that means that they’re growing up.

So if you can give that trust into the teacher, you can kind of give that freedom to the child to learn, to go in there and feel safe and learn from this person. Right? So there’s a safety in, “I’m giving this teacher permission to, to take it from here,” you [00:13:00] know, and it’s an invisible, it might not even be said, but it’s felt.

And I think that’s why we need to be self aware as parents, because what we feel is communicated in our behaviors, our body language…

[00:13:13] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Well, and so then that would it be not just for teachers, right? That’s applicable to a babysitter, to a nanny, especially people who are taking over some very parent like behaviors, you know, physical care, um, bathroom help, you know, bedtime help.

The child can manage their two-way feelings better if they know, in a very conscious way. … Maybe parents can sometimes assume that if I, if I leave my child with a babysitter, then my child must know that I trust them. But sometimes no, right? Sometimes they don’t know after you leave, like, well, maybe the babysitter’s not supposed to be brushing my hair the way that, you know, mommy does.

Maybe they’re not supposed to [00:14:00] be making me dinner like daddy does. And so I think maybe sometimes parents forget to have conversations.

[00:14:06] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah, I really like that. I was actually talking to a family yesterday in the school. And they said that one of the things they really like is that the they’re often having these conversations with the teacher and the child together in the room and that the child is listening to the parent talk to the teacher and they’re all on the same page and I think about that when even you hire a babysitter. Like that you are having a conversation with the babysitter in front of the child and saying, OK,

she’s gonna, you know, get you or he’s gonna get you your dinner and then you guys are gonna maybe watch something and then you’ll go to bed. And like everyone’s on the same page. There’s a plan and it’s everyone trusts everyone and everyone knows what’s going on and it’s like a team. And so there is like a team approach to this school.

[00:15:00] And it is the parent team with the teacher and it should be the same really that when you, you know send your kid to camp that you’re creating some sort of connection with the counselor, um, teacher, babysitter, you know it goes on and on and on and it really goes on if you think about it to college where you send your kid to college and you go there… I mean, you see these people setting up their kids rooms. They’re doing that. They’re, they’re putting themselves in that college dorm room space. You know, they’re making the bed together. So this really never ends. It just keeps going.

[00:15:42] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So let’s talk a little bit about what happens as children begin to master their separation feelings and I’m talking about the concept of keeping each other in mind and your understanding of what, what does that mean when we’re [00:16:00] keeping each other in mind?

[00:16:01] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, this is something I never knew about until I came here, um, and learned from Hanna Perkins that the idea is, it’s an invisible idea. That we have a mental model or we have the ability to hold someone in mind. And that feels safe. That feels, um, comfortable and safe, you know, just to even think of, of your loved one.

[00:16:31] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And, and part of just part of brain development is that little littles, little littles, 2’s, 3’s, don’t necessarily yet have that capability. And so what are some of the things that you recommend for helping to trigger that keeping people in mind? Like, I’m not going to forget mommy while I’m away.

[00:16:58] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, one [00:17:00] of the things is the child may not recognize that they’re missing their parent and that teacher is trained to notice missing feelings.

They definitely are here. And one of the tricks here is that there’s a picture. And I know a lot of schools have that, uh, a little picture in a cubby is a great way to bring that, that person back in a mental model. Um, It’s a simple thing. Uh, also writing the parent a note, drawing the parent a picture.

These are ways to really connect when someone’s not there. Uh, even, um, There’s a great trick that I know a lot of people know about when you go on a vacation, you can make little books to help a child.

[00:17:53] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Let’s talk about that because I, you think a lot of people know. I don’t know that a lot of people know.

[00:17:58] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: I guess I am a little… [00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Let’s talk about, let’s, so let’s, let’s talk about, let’s talk about bookmaking as a form of preparation for separation.

[00:18:07] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah. So there, um, There are so many ways to do this. The, the term I hear thrown around a lot is social stories. And really it’s just telling, creating a little book.

You can buy just even a photo book, like one, you just slide photos in and you’re telling the story of, we’re going to go on a trip and these are the things… these are the new things we’re going to be doing. I mean, you know, sometimes you’re going away, but sometimes you’re going away together. I mean, to think about that, the child separating from their bed, right?

There’s a lot of people that are like. I don’t know, they couldn’t sleep in the hotel room, you know. Well, it’s a new room. It’s a new bed. Right, so that’s even separation. Anything that’s separate from what you’re used to and home. So you can make a little book of where you’re going and what the plane’s going to look like.

A picture and who you’re going to be with. You know, because [00:19:00] they’re, this idea of stranger anxiety comes up. When you meet someone new. So books can be visual representations for a kid before they can read. You can tell the story in an auditory way using the book. We’re gonna get in the car in the morning, and then we’re gonna go to the airport, and then we’re gonna fly on the plane, and then we’re going to land, and we’re gonna go to this hotel, and then we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna go in, there’s gonna be a bed there in that hotel room, and then we’re gonna go to sleep, and we’re gonna wake up, and we’re gonna go swimming.

And then they have an idea in their mind. We take for granted that we have planned the trip. Like we researched the hotel. We know where we’re going. They have no clue. And we’re like, Oh, why are they acting so odd? Well, they have no idea where they’re going. So talking to a child, even when they aren’t quite verbal, they have that receptive learning and receptive understanding that you can say, we’re going on a trip.

You know, we’re getting in the car. We’re going to go on [00:20:00] an airplane. It’s OK. It’s OK to talk to a child about these things.

[00:20:05] Dr. Kimberly Bell: OK. So let’s switch gears a little bit. And all of the things we’ve been talking about up till now are how the process of a child’s managing separation feelings that happen every single day of their lives, um, to a different degree or another.

So what are some of the things that can disrupt that and create a situation that we would, you know, call or diagnose as separation anxiety and, um, and when to get help, when to get help for those?

[00:20:42] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Well, I think the, the defining marker is always that just daily life is truly interrupted. And that the child can’t function quite, can’t separate, is so afraid, doesn’t want to go to school at all.

You know, this [00:21:00] is, this is interruption of just pro, progress. And, and so that’s really when to get help. And that’s probably because it’s possible that something happened that was quite scary in the past. Um, or it could be that the child is not really understanding a certain feeling and that is scaring them.

But they don’t really know that, you know, and so that’s when you get a helper to help you understand what is the feeling inside that is making things so hard and so scary.

[00:21:37] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So It could be, some of the things I’m thinking of are, um, divorce with shared custody certainly can complicate separation progress.

Um, the need to be in a hospital for any kind of medical procedure. The need for the parent to be gone for an oddly long period of [00:22:00] time. We saw a lot of it during COVID when some parents had to separate from their children; they were working in the the health care field.

So some of these unavoidable life changes that can make it feel like oh now I’m really not sure if moms and dads always come back or, you know, the, the normal process of life has been so disrupted by something. Um, and I think it’s, I think it’s important for us to communicate to parents that those things are not the end of the world because it can feel like it.

The, the amount of, the amount of guilt that’s involved in, in parenting is, um, huge anyway. But I think that it gets to a point where it’s not what we call usable guilt, right?

[00:22:54] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah, I think that we are coming into a different time where we’re realizing [00:23:00] that talking about what was hard in the past…

I mean all children — we’re all doing this in therapy. I think therapy is becoming a much more usable common thing. And Hanna Perkins always says anything that can be talked about can be helped. It used to be kind of an old adage: “Oh, we just won’t talk about it. Don’t say that. Don’t say anything.” And we know now — and it’s pretty much become pop culture — that it just gets trapped away somewhere. It comes out in certain ways, you know, and that’s why it can be confusing to see a child’s behavior. Like what is going on? Well, behavior has meaning. There’s something, there’s a feeling there that’s coming out in a behavior. It’s not random. Let’s let’s talk about what might have been hard in the past and let’s talk about it and release it like move through it.

[00:23:57] Dr. Kimberly Bell: I think that that is [00:24:00] such a key concept and sort of a perfect place to end this particular segment. That’s also my favorite saying, by the way.

I’m sure I’ve said it multiple times on this podcast that children can get through anything that can be talked about. And so you don’t necessarily have to fix, handle, or change the circumstance. The divorce is the divorce. The illness is the illness. The medical procedure is the medical procedure. And all of them are likely being done for very good reasons.

And I think that, that the tendency to not want to talk about the hardness of those things is because of the amount of guilt that it brings up. And I think you gave a great message to parents that it’s not about changing the thing that you had to do. It is about talking about the thing that was hard to do, um, and getting help when you need it.

OK. Taryn, I think that’s a perfect place to stop. Let’s move into the next [00:25:00] segment that we like to call let’s rephrase that ready to try something a little different.

[00:25:05] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yes.

[00:25:06] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Alright. This is, this is where we talk through things that grownups find themselves saying to children and come up with alternative ways of saying it that are more useful.

Ready? Ready. All right. So, maybe it’s drop off time for preschool or something disappointing happened like a play date fell through. The child starts crying and the grown up says, don’t cry, crying is for babies.

[00:25:31] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Oh, OK.

[00:25:35] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Let’s talk about that and rephrase that.

[00:25:36] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: We’re going to rephrase that. So. I know you’re sad, right?

It’s putting the feeling into words because crying is just the action and we’re trying to teach kids language for their feelings and emotions. So I know you’re disappointed. I think you’re crying because you’re disappointed. Can we make another plan? [00:26:00] I know it’s hard that you can’t have that today. But let’s make a plan for another day.

[00:26:09] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Very nice. Very nice. Again, I think that the parents tend to react quickly because they can’t fix, handle or change the situation. And so it feels like, well, if I can’t change anything, then how do I help? And I, I think again, we’re, we’re emphasizing that identifying the feeling, speaking the feeling and then redirecting is a way of helping them manage. OK, one more.

So let’s say you have a child who is hanging on to their parent when they’re going through a separation, when they’re being dropped off at preschool, let’s say. And they’re hanging on to their parent and the parent is like, stop embarrassing me. [00:27:00] Let’s rephrase that.

[00:27:02] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: OK. Well, this is so hard because the parent’s like, Oh God, this is so annoying.

They need to go inside and let’s just…

[00:27:09] Dr. Kimberly Bell: I’m late for work.

[00:27:10] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah. It’s really a hard moment for a parent. So really getting in touch with your own feelings and trying to just breathe in that moment and calm yourself a little bit because that will help really co-regulate with the child. I think first and then saying, I am here with you.

We’re doing this together. When you’re ready, I think you can go inside.

[00:27:36] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And giving the time.

[00:27:38] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yeah, giving the space and time. I know you’ll be ready soon to go in and have a day at school.

[00:27:45] Dr. Kimberly Bell: I think that’s also a great time to say, I will miss you and you will miss me, but we will be together soon. And maybe transition to a picture or some kind of little transitional thing that [00:28:00] will help everybody keep everybody in mind for the day.

[00:28:04] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: I love that. Yeah. It’s very beautiful.

[00:28:08] Dr. Kimberly Bell: All right. Well, fantastic. Thank you so much. Uh, our next one is a little segment where we take questions from listeners. So one of the questions that we have received is this: My 5-year-old son has an imaginary friend. At first, I didn’t worry about it, but now we have to feed this friend at meals and tuck him into bed.

Our son can describe him as if he really exists and holds conversations with him. He tells us this friend isn’t imaginary, just invisible. I’m getting concerned and don’t know what to do.

[00:28:44] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Wow. OK. Well, I would first say to the parent, it is totally normal. Uh, I don’t know why they’re concerned, but you know, talking to someone who isn’t there, we can definitely think, uh, when they’re older, that might be a concern, but [00:29:00] this is right on time.

And the child is having obvious feelings about wanting, um, someone all to themselves, wanting a special friend, not wanting to be alone. So, this friend is always with them, and this is a time in life where they’re learning that they are the kid and their parents are the parents, and that can be a little isolating.

So, um, if the child doesn’t have a sibling or even does, they just want their own friend, but maybe the feelings could be talked about. Um, just, you really want someone just always with you and, and just to take care of and to be taken care of. Um, and just trying to understand how special this is. This is satisfying, this, this child, right, the feelings behind this interaction.

[00:29:57] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So, I think some parents might [00:30:00] be concerned that, well, if I ask too many questions or if I, uh, indulge, maybe is the word that parents would say, well, if I indulge it, then I’m, then I’m encouraging it, I’m reinforcing it. And that can be a little bit contradictory to some of the advice, which is get curious about it so that we can understand.

The loneliness that might be bringing this about and how talking about that and, and wondering with the child why they like this friend so much and what, what about this particular friend, um, makes them, makes them want to be their friend or something along those lines. And, and then what you find is I would think a gradual fading away.

Would you agree?

[00:30:45] Taryn Ponsky, MA, LPCC: Yes, I think you’re entering that world. And I do really think that this is the challenge of parenting as children grow, is that they are doing things, [00:31:00] especially these days, that parents are like, what is, you know, what is this? And it’s kind of like staying with them. In their world, being able to communicate with them as they grow, right?

So this is just one phase of entering their space and trying to understand them. Then they’re going to be teenagers and you’re going to be like, What is that noise? You know, can you imagine, right? It’s the music they love.

So entering that space with them and being there with them instead of you come over here with me, you know, is really important so that they don’t feel alone as they’re being there to be left.

Right. They’re, they’re moving along.

[00:31:44] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Excellent. OK. Well, if you are listening and you find this information as fascinating as we hope you do, there is a book right here is the ultimate guide to understanding your child’s behavior. It is called timeless [00:32:00] advice for parents of young children. And it was written by a group of Hanna Perkins, early childhood, development experts.

We’re going to show a QR code for the next little bit, which you can scan to find it on Amazon for less than 20 dollars. From tantrums to preschool jitters, it unlocks the mysteries of your child’s mind. It’s easy reading with short chapters that are organized by common situations, and it offers gentle and loving strategies like we’ve talked about today for so many of the challenges that parents face.

“Timeless Advice” can bring out that nurturing, patient, and resourceful parent that lives in all of us. Alright, that’s our time for today. If you’d like us to answer a question about your child’s behavior, send us an email at hiddenlanguageofchildren@gmail.com, or visit our website at hiddenlanguageofchildren.org.

Thank you for joining us. We are grateful to all of our listeners today. We hope you enjoyed this conversation and found it to be helpful when making parenting decisions [00:33:00] appropriate for your child. Hidden Language of Children podcast is a production of the non profit Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in beautiful Shaker Heights, Ohio.

If you like this podcast, please subscribe to hear future episodes and share it with friends and family. We welcome your comments and your questions. I’m Dr. Kimberly Bell, and I will see you next time.