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Transcript of Episode 4:

Ep 4: A Parent’s Experience With Social-Emotional Early-Learning

[00:00:00] Kimberly Bell: Are you interested in knowing your young child in a whole new way? Understanding what’s really going on in their developing mind? Does your child say or do things that make you stop and wonder, where did that come from? Well, stick around because this podcast is designed for you. Hello friends and welcome listeners.

I’m Dr. Kimberly Bell, the clinical director at the Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in Cleveland, Ohio. And this is the Hidden Language of Children, a podcast dedicated to understanding the children we love and helping them grow. We created this podcast to help parents and caregivers understand the inner life of children, that constant churning of feelings and emotions that goes on inside of us.

This is the work Hanna Perkins has been doing with children and families since 1951. We help kids become the boss of themselves. We want to share it with you because our approach to understanding children reduces conflict and makes life better for everyone. Today, I’m welcoming Kim [00:01:00] Sable, a professional photographer who signed on to our approach to social emotional development several years ago when she enrolled her twins in Hanna Perkins School.

She’s been wanting to share the experience. Welcome, Kim. Thanks for having me. So how long ago did you come to Hanna Perkins for your kids to be in

[00:01:19] Kim Sable: school? Oh gosh, my kids are eight and they were about 17 months. When they started Toddler Group.

[00:01:28] Kimberly Bell: OK, so you started early. What brought you to Hanna Perkins?

[00:01:31] Kim Sable: You know, it was a family referral. I’d had some nieces and nephews who had wonderful experiences and I’d grown up with a mom who’s a social worker and the idea of, you know, coping skills and empathy. That was the messaging in our household growing up, the importance of those, and it was just It was just natural fit to prioritize my kids’ development.

 

[00:01:59] Kimberly Bell: So [00:02:00] you had some of that growing up in, in your household and it was part of your family culture to think about social emotional development. Did that make the transition into Hanna Perkins then easier for you or did it seem like a brand new way of thinking?

No, it was all new.

[00:02:16] Kim Sable: Parenting was new, right? I, I wanted my whole life to be a mom and here I am. I’ve got these two babies who are very different from one another. And, uh, where’s my instruction manual? I don’t understand what I’m supposed to do with them or why they’re acting the way they’re acting. And, uh, so I was really excited for the program, but at the same time, I had no idea what to expect.

[00:02:43] Kimberly Bell: I think you make a really important point about parenting, that no matter how you were raised, you may have a foundation for a way of understanding things, but nobody is prepared for parenting.

[00:02:57] Kim Sable: Would you say that that’s true? Yeah, I mean, it’s so [00:03:00] instinct based.

It’s so reactive, right? And in real time, what I do or think really has nothing to do with what I tell myself. When I’m in a given situation, I will do or think. And so it’s reconciling those two things and learning a new language to communicate with my kids in a way that they would understand, well, that’s all brand new.

[00:03:25] Kimberly Bell: So tell us a little bit about your experience. Let’s sort of start with the toddler group because you started young.

[00:03:31] Kim Sable: So when I started, so my kids are Charlotte and Cameron. And, uh, they developmentally, physically and emotionally were very different, uh, really early on. Charlotte was crawling when we started toddler group.

She was not, she couldn’t walk herself to the door to go to outside time. I had to carry her. And so we really got to see her become a little person from a baby in that classroom. Uh, but there were, there were things that [00:04:00] stand out to me as a mom that were. You know, the expectations for where they should be versus where they were walking.

There was nothing we can do about that. We knew developmentally she was on track. It was a small feet issue and a balance issue. But, um, you know, at snack time, the kids would be given a cup and these, these are little babies. They would have spilled it right on themselves immediately. Cameron was eating crayons when they were supposed to be coloring with them.

We would literally be prying them out of his mouth. Um, and so I had to find the balance between sticking to my guns to advocate for my kids. And also reconciling what I felt was judgment based on those, uh, you know, those times where I would want something different than what was being asked of them in the classroom.

So snack time with the cups, I brought sippy cups and we kind of [00:05:00] negotiated that we would have both at the table to encourage them to, you know, to grow and use the actual cup, but at the same time they were the youngest in the class, there were kids who were a year older than them and they were drinking, uh, and my kids were spilling it all over themselves and I didn’t want them to feel bad about themselves because of social pressure.

So I insisted that they have a sippy cup and the teachers weren’t thrilled because they wanted to empower the kids to grow and not treat them like babies. But at the same time, I wanted to advocate for them where they were while encouraging them to be further.

[00:05:36] Kimberly Bell: Yeah, what’s so interesting about that is that, you know, you started off by saying where where is my manual like who am I going to be with these kids and yet You really know them best, right?

Like, in that scenario, you’re able to work with the teachers and say, Wait a minute, I know my child best and this is what I want for my child. Which is kind of the exact empowerment that you want to have, [00:06:00] right? Like, there’s, there’s this dual sense of, I don’t know what I’m doing, but wait, I do want to do it this way.

Right. And, you know, that in and of itself grows your confidence as a parent, as you’re able to experience those things. Um, what, what do you think about the difference between, and, and you may not have experienced, so maybe you can’t speak to it, but what do you think about the difference between a toddler program where you attended with your child versus a program, what might it have felt like to take your child to a program at that age that didn’t include you?

You

[00:06:37] Kim Sable: know, they were little and I had waited a long time to get them in my life and I was selfish. So I wanted the socialization. I wanted the, uh, the enrichment and the benefit that came with doing a preschool toddler program. But at the same time, I was. unwilling [00:07:00] to ship them off to boarding school. So that’s what it was.

That’s what it felt like to you. Yeah. So, um, I, to me it was the perfect fit. It was, It wasn’t overwhelming. It was two days a week, right? So it was the perfect balance because they had the teacher to follow. They had the teacher to, uh, to lead them in the classroom environment, but they had me there by their side.

And I, I looked at other programs where the parents would stay on the wall and the kids would do school. And I was like, well, I’m not really having this experience with them. And that’s what’s something about the Hanna Perkins toddler group that I liked is that it was an experience that I had with them.

[00:07:46] Kimberly Bell: You know, one of the reasons why we focus on that so much in, in the toddler group too, is because as you have that experience with your child, you are investing in their school experience. They see you [00:08:00] investing in their school experience, and they then learn to invest in their school experience through that connection with you.

You exist with them in that space so that when they then transition to preschool they’re going there without you eventually, um, how was that transition then for you guys?

[00:08:23] Kim Sable: So going from toddler group to preschool, uh, it was good.

It wasn’t the environment I expected it to be. I did have some reservations after the first couple of weeks of preschool. It wasn’t what I pictured preschool to, to look like or feel like. I remember being taken aback that they never introduced the kids to each other. There was no ice breaking, you know, ceremonial circle time where everyone said their names.

My reaction was how cold, how, you know, everyone’s a stranger and [00:09:00] uncomfortable and it’s a new environment and you don’t know these people. So thank goodness I was there because otherwise they would have not known anybody. And they didn’t yet have the knowledge, the social graces to introduce.

So it was me saying, hi, what’s your name? You know, this is Cameron. So I was put off by that until I, again, it goes back to the confidence that going through the Hanna Perkins processes helped me develop as a mom and as a person, um, was the confidence to tell my family helper, how I was feeling.

[00:09:36] Kimberly Bell: And

[00:09:37] Kim Sable: I don’t like this, and then she was able to explain to me why, and it made sense.

And once I allowed myself to voice the things that felt weird or, you know, Uh, I remember saying, I felt like this was that you’re, you imagine singing and colors and music [00:10:00] and, and playing the tambourine and, uh, you know, you imagine preschool and you know, her response to me was, well, how overwhelming could that be for a kid who’s a little freaked out by where they are and now you overstimulate them.

And if they want music, they’ll ask for it. And so it. It let me slow down this advance to being in school. And it let me see it from the perspective of let the child get there when they’re ready. Instead of, OK, check the box, you’re in preschool, now start singing. And it, it, it was, it was different. But any parent that I’ve talked to who was thinking about going, I made sure to, you know, Let them know.

It was, it felt weird at first, but it was my own projections about what I thought it was supposed to be like versus what I was experiencing.

[00:10:57] Kimberly Bell: So, um, [00:11:00] You mentioned the family helper. So from your perspective Talk about the role of the family helper. So for everybody who’s listening at Hanna Perkins in our school, every family has a family helper that they that they meet with and talk about their child’s school experience, any developmental questions that they might have.

That person is sort of available throughout the school and you meet like once a week. Um, how did you understand the role of that person?

[00:11:29] Kim Sable: So as I understood it before I was in it, it was exactly what you said. Somebody who observed the classroom, meet with the teachers and then report back to me about that.

Where my children were and what they were doing or how they were doing and help me navigate any challenges based on the knowledge they have from their time in the classroom and the teacher’s perspectives. What I found is I touched on this before. They were a instruction manual. They [00:12:00] were Live chat system for my kids and the enlightenment I got from some of the conversations I had not only helped me better understand my kids, but helped me understand me and what I could do.

Um, to navigate this parenting thing with my kids. And so, um, it was incredible.

[00:12:27] Kimberly Bell: So given some of the reservations or experiences that you had of like, OK, this isn’t what I thought it was going to be and how do I make this work for my kids? What do you think would be, I don’t know, some of the things that you ended up taking from the toddler group or preschool that has sort of stuck with you in your parenting?

[00:12:52] Kim Sable: Some of the biggest. were ways that I could modify what I said in a [00:13:00] way to think about how my kid was hearing it. And I remember in toddler group that they would say, if a kid was running down the hall, stop your feet, they wouldn’t just say stop. And I found that blew my mind. Right. It was like, Oh my, yeah, they don’t know if I’m saying stop singing, stop laughing, stop.

To, to give them, to break it down, right? To dumb it down, so to speak, that’s not the right term, but, you know, to be explicit in what am I wanting you to stop? And that simple modification was so helpful and um, you know, learning to understand that even to this day, my eight year old, I hope he doesn’t watch this, his behavior tanks and I’m like, I…

Do you have to go to the bathroom? Because when you are fighting your body, you are fighting me, was probably above everything I learned at Hanna Perkins, was the most enlightening thing because it was [00:14:00] textbook with this kid. Um, but just really to try to understand that their actions and their behaviors are indicators for something that lays beneath the surface that might not be as obvious, or maybe it’s so obvious.

Understanding that he’s not being bad. He’s fighting something, right.

[00:14:23] Kimberly Bell: You

[00:14:24] Kim Sable: know, so all of that was just huge for me . And I still try to remind myself, I do some self Hanna Perkins self- talk all the time.

[00:14:34] Kimberly Bell: What does that sound like?

[00:14:37] Kim Sable: Oh, I don’t know. I got to think of a example, but just that he, you know, recently there was something that the kids did and we were just, flabbergasted that they did or didn’t do something that was so obvious.

And I said to my husband in front of the [00:15:00] kids, because I think they should. see that we aren’t perfect. And I said to my husband, we have 40 some years of experience to know that that is a given that is a no brainer, but their… this is their first time going through this experience. Why, what gives us the audacity to think that they should know better, right?

It’s one of those parents, you should have known better, right? Why now they know, but we need to cut them some slack and give them the grace to learn. These things that are so obvious to us. Right. But they’re not to them. And I think that those are the, the lessons that really have stuck with me through Hanna Perkins, but also just prioritizing their social, emotional wellbeing of everything.

I mean, even we talk, they’re in third grade, but we talk about, I do not care if they ever take an AP class, I really don’t. Because I want them to learn to love to learn, but I want them [00:16:00] to be a whole person and I don’t care about the achievement aspect, uh, they’ll learn. And I think that that’s, that’s a subliminal messaging coming from.

Preschool at Hanna Perkins. It was, it’s an incredible academic environment, but nobody talks about that. That’s kind of the given,

[00:16:22] Kimberly Bell: right?

[00:16:23] Kim Sable: My kids left reading and they went in, they started kindergarten reading and not all their classmates were where they were , but

I was much more aware of their social, emotional advanced stage over their, their peers. Um, academics was, was there, but where I felt that they were a step ahead of their classmates, or maybe their classmates parents, was the, the whole person [00:17:00] development that happened throughout time there.

[00:17:05] Kimberly Bell: I think, I’m noticing just sort of a couple of different things that you’re saying that are so interesting.

The first one being that That, you know, I think there, there is no program that I think is a perfect fit for anybody. Do you know what I mean? There’s no, it’s, it’s one of our, one of our main tenets at Hanna Perkins is that we adapt to the individual needs of the child. That’s true when we do therapy with a child.

That’s true in the school, that we start out with a framework and Then, as a child responds, as parents respond, as there’s the push and the pull and the give and the take, we learn about that child as an individual. And then we create these compromises and these scenarios and all of these different things for that particular child, whether that’s a [00:18:00] child who has

two parents who don’t live together, whether that’s a child who has, you know, a nanny, whether that’s a child who kind of grew up being in daycare and is now trying to do a different kind of separation process. Um, any child you bring into any academic structure may not be the perfect fit. And I think it’s when the environment is rigid and inflexible to the point that you can’t find a compromise.

And I think it sounds like the family helper really was there for you to say, well, here’s the perspective of the school. Let’s talk about your perspective. Let’s find, you know, what’s the compromise. Let’s talk to the teacher. And you end up spending so much time genuinely thinking about your child in this environment.

And the second point that I, that I thought was really interesting that you just said was that in the midst of all of this [00:19:00] focus, right, in the midst of starting off with your children with, you know, sippy cups versus regular cups, and they leave preschool, then reading, um, that development happens. That learning… when you when you open up the door socially and emotionally that learning then happens and we don’t always have to be so focused on the flashcards or the skill development because once you develop this sort of love of learning then the learning kind of happens When you’re paying attention to the social emotional stuff Um, does that sound, is that a good reflection of your experience?

[00:19:39] Kim Sable: Absolutely. And you know, my mom laughs at me cause she says, nobody talks to your kids the way you talk to them. And I think that’s another, another offshoot is one thing that’s so unique about the teacher student dynamic at Hanna Perkins is they are spoken to [00:20:00] as real people. They are not talked down to at any point.

There’s no, um, setting the expectation for what they can or cannot do. You’re going to push the snack cart. If you need a little help steering because you can’t see over it, I’m here to help you. But I’m not going to point out the fact that I’m there helping you. I’m just there to help you. But they were spoken to as if they were much older than I think most people would.

And I’ve continued, I talked to them about everything, mostly feeling things. And if it goes over their head, that’s OK. I’m sure the same topic will come up in a couple of months.

[00:20:47] Kimberly Bell: Right.

[00:20:48] Kim Sable: We’ll, we’ll catch it then. But we, we talk about all these things and I see them doing the same thing, you

[00:20:56] Kimberly Bell: know, do you think your kids are more likely to [00:21:00] come to you with their feelings because of this kind of relationship that you developed with them?

[00:21:05] Kim Sable: We’ll see what happens when they get older, when they turn teenagers, but at this point it doesn’t occur to them not to, right? So although I have one who’s very emotive, a little too emotive at times, and I have one who’s a withholder. And these are, again, terms that I learned from an experience. She was a bathroom withholder.

And now she is a feelings withholder. And that’s a struggle. It’s much easier for me to say, he’s being a maniac. What’s underneath that behavior? Um, cause he’s a little bit more of an open book because of that. But my daughter, if she’s upset, she shuts down and she puts up walls. And that’s a lot harder for me because now it’s me guessing, OK, is she upset about this?

Is she upset about that? I don’t want to tell her what she’s upset about, but at the same time I [00:22:00] want to try to bait the hook and get her to open up. So it’s not always easy. But they recognize things at school, you know, dynamics or things that they feel are unfair or, and they don’t present it in a whining, complaining way.

It’s more of a statement of observation. And so I don’t know that I’m not in other people’s cars at school pickup, so I don’t know what’s being revealed then. But those are what I’m, you know, seeing is their ability to put their feelings into words in ways that lets me have a constructive conversation with them or to advocate for what they’re not getting or needing.

Uh, so it’s good. I mean, we have a blended family. My husband has two girls from his first marriage. And that stirs up a lot of feelings

[00:22:53] Kimberly Bell: for my

[00:22:54] Kim Sable: kids and for them. And so to give them the ability to say, [00:23:00] I feel jealous when, you know, daddy spends time when they’re over, he pays more attention to them. Well, I kick it into gear and we talk about how they feel, right.

And it’s, I want to validate their feelings, but also teach them. And that’s something that has been happening since they were 17 months old at the Hanna Perkins learning to just talk about everything.

[00:23:29] Kimberly Bell: I don’t, because you started with them so young, I don’t know if you’ll be able to sort of respond to this, but would, do you think that this way of parenting, this very socially emotional way of parenting is harder than maybe some of the things that your friends choose to do.

Absolutely. Or yeah.

[00:23:48] Kim Sable: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yes and no. OK. It comes more naturally to me. Mm hmm. How I’m wired, which is probably why I loved Hanna Perkins, right? It was, I drink the Kool [00:24:00] Aid, but it’s, it’s a really easy for some people to, you know, To be scared of things that are uncomfortable, you know, even if you look at adults with things that they don’t want to acknowledge are going on, they’ll easily just turn a blind eye.

Well, that doesn’t make it go away and it is harder to address it and to have the hard conversations. And I think with parenting and with kids, it’s the same thing. So there were definitely times where I would say something and my husband, and here we go again, right? But over the years, I think he came to appreciate

that we’re going to the core issue. We’re not just putting a bandaid on it.

[00:24:44] Kimberly Bell: So, you know, one of the, the phrases that I always go back to is that children can get through anything that can be talked about. And I think that’s true for all people. I think human beings can get through anything that can be talked about.

And I, I think sometimes [00:25:00] when you drop your kids off to school and you wave and everything is sort of sunny and rosy it can be frustrating if the teachers don’t tell you what’s going on, or you don’t, you feel disconnected, or the teachers are quietly judging you for something that happened, or the way the kids came to school.

And I think one of the things that Hanna Perkins, it can be very, very frustrating. you know, jarring, but in the end really helpful is that we don’t shy away from difficult conversations. We don’t shy away from talking about big feelings or hard things or, you know, there, there’s sort of this, um, OK, you know, let’s talk about it and, and kind of get through it.

And that can feel really uncomfortable at first, I think. And then you start to get used to like, oh, wait, they can talk to me about those concerns, but I can talk to them about my concerns. And then it becomes collaborative, right? I was

[00:25:53] Kim Sable: just recalling this morning that recently I learned, OK, you can, as a parent, you can change a consequence, [00:26:00] right?

I’m reactive. And I said, you don’t get your iPad for a week or a month. And it had nothing. And later on, I’m like, why did I feel like he made a mistake? Like, you can edit yourself and you can let your kid know that. And I think that, um, to show that vulnerability, And to allow yourself to feel vulnerable

[00:26:21] Kimberly Bell: as a

[00:26:22] Kim Sable: kid, as a parent, as a co worker, whatever it might be, I think that is a lesson that, that starts through Hanna Perkins, like even the separation process, you feel vulnerable.

You may, it’s torture for the, why are you torturing these kids? But when it’s explained to you, it makes so much sense, right? They can they can handle it and they can realize that they can handle more. You don’t need to shy away from it. You know now we all have our cell phones and when you feel anxious you you ignore the anxiety by playing some candy crush game on your phone to avoid it.

Well, that’s not helping you deal with [00:27:00] it. And that’s the lesson I think that the kids are given right away at Hanna Perkins Is that if you ignored it, it’s not gonna go away. So let’s address it head on Mm hmm. Let’s go through it and you’ll see that you now have tools So I think that to me has been the biggest, you know advantage that we’ve seen Well, I don’t know.

There’s a lot of them.

[00:27:24] Kimberly Bell: I think, yeah. Every family sort of takes exactly what they need. I do think. That’s kind of my

[00:27:29] Kim Sable: experience. Great. And it would be really helpful. Yeah. As these kids get harder and more complicated and where are these, uh, child development experts in my day to day.

[00:27:40] Kimberly Bell: Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.

Um, it’s, it’s been absolutely great talking to you and, and hopefully maybe we’ll come up with reasons to talk to you again in future. All right. Have a great day. Bye bye. We always like to do something a little fun or different before signing off [00:28:00] each edition of the Hidden Language of Children. Today we’ve got Bob Rosenbaum here.

He’s the person who gets things lined up and keeps things on schedule with this podcast. But today, Bob is jumping in as his alter ego, The Word Guy. And he has brought a little bit of a rant here with him.

[00:28:17] Bob Rosenbaum: Thanks, Kim. I’m here to talk to you today about the most maligned concept in parenting since castor oil.

Yeah, we’re talking about the timeout. There’s parenting gurus all over the place who will call the timeout a, um, timeout. Minor punishment. Not too long ago on the morning news, I heard one of the national anchors, um, doing a feature piece on the timeout. And she referred to the timeout chair and she said, it doesn’t work that when she points to the timeout chair and tells her son to sit in it, uh, he only gets angrier and more upset.

Well, of course, because a timeout – she’s treating it like a punishment. Look, there’s, there’s no magic in the words time out. By assigning the words time out to what you’re trying to do

doesn’t make [00:29:00] everything hunky dory Time out has to be said right. It has to be done right. So let’s look at the origin of the word. It’s a sports metaphor. If things are not going well on the playing field, and the referee calls his whistle, and he points at a player, and he points to the side of the field, that’s not a timeout. That’s a penalty. And the player’s going to go sit in the penalty box or the timeout chair, if you will, but if things are going poorly on the field and the coach does one of these and he calls a timeout and the referee blows his whistle and play stops, the coach doesn’t send his players to the chair.

He brings his players into a circle and he says, Hey, Hey, Hey, let’s calm down. We’re doing fine, but we need to make some adjustments. So take a breath and let’s make a plan. And they work on it together. It’s, it’s a beautiful thing. And hopefully the team comes back on the field and everybody’s winning. Um, so next time you’re having one of those moments, [00:30:00] um, skip the anger.

Don’t point to a chair and don’t think of yourself as the referee. Think of yourself as the coach, call a timeout and understand the timeout is Not just for the child. It’s also for you. Cause maybe you’re getting a little upset too. And the right language is something like, Hey, Hey, things are not going well.

Let’s sit here quietly. Let’s just love each other for a minute. We’re both angry, but if we just sit quietly and share each other’s time. We can calm down and when we’re calm, we’ll discuss it and things will get better. That’s not a punishment. That’s a time out. Thanks. I’m Bob, the Word Guy.

[00:30:39] Kimberly Bell: Alright, thanks Bob.

That’s our time for today. If you’d like us to answer a question about your child’s behavior, send us an email at thehiddenlanguageofchildren at gmail. com or visit our website at hiddenlanguageofchildren. org. Thank you for joining us. We are grateful to all of our listeners today. [00:31:00] We hope you enjoyed this conversation and found it to be helpful when making parenting decisions appropriate for your child.

The Hidden Language of Children podcast is a production of the nonprofit Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in beautiful Shaker Heights, Ohio. If you like this podcast, please subscribe to hear future episodes and share it with friends and family. We welcome comments and questions. I’m Dr.

Kimberly Bell, and we will see you next time.