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Transcript of Season 2 Episode 14:

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Hidden Language of Children Podcast. Are you interested in knowing your young child in a whole new way, understanding what’s really going on in their developing mind? Does your child say or do things that make you stop and wonder, where did that come from? Well, I’m your host, Dr. Kimberly Bell, Clinical Director at the Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in Shaker Heights, Ohio, where we work with families to become the boss of themselves by understanding and managing their feelings.

Our guest today is Dr. Adrianne Fletcher, who is Vice Dean for Academic Community Engagement at the Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine; and assistant professor at the Mandel School of Applied Social Sciences, also at Case Western. And most relevant for today’s conversation, she’s tapped into her 20 years as a social worker and psychotherapist to become a children’s book author.

Welcome, Adrianne. We have three books that we need to be talking [00:01:00] about today, so why don’t we start by you telling us a little bit about how you decided to venture into writing children’s books.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Absolutely. And thank you Kim, for inviting me on this podcast.

So what you said was terribly relevant. Have you ever stopped to wonder why your child said this or that? Most of these books the three that have been published and those that are waiting to be published, were birthed from things that my children said during their formative years that made me stop and say, “Hmm, I wonder why they said that.”

So they’re really birthed out of those moments of observation with my very own children and children that we had the opportunity to engage with.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: So let’s start with the first one, “Helping Hands, Healing Hands.” How did that come about?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So that one is particularly different as I, I, I mentioned that most of the books came forward from my own [00:02:00] experiences with my children, but that book was birthed out of my personal experience with my maternal grandmother, who happened to be a maid right here in the Shaker Heights, Ohio area.

And I had the opportunity to go to work with her one summer, the summer of my fifth birthday before kindergarten. And I had the opportunity to watch her do her work on a daily basis, and during that time while she was working, she was listening to me and also pouring life into me. So Helping Hands, Healing Hands was birthed out of, “Adrianne, you can be whoever you want to be.”

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: You know, a lot of people know that famous quote from Mr. Rogers: “Always look for the helpers,” right? And when times are tough, always look for the helpers. What people may not know is that that actually originally came from Anna Freud.

So it went like Anna Freud, Mr. Rogers, Anna Freud, Hanna Perkins, and being able to look for the [00:03:00] helpers, being able to have your inside helper, being able to help your peers, being able to help your parents. This idea of having this impact on the people that you are in relationship with mm-hmm. I think is, has always been such an important message here.

And what I really liked in your book is the breadth and depth of the types of ways that you can help. Yes. Right? Yes. So tell me a little bit more about how then that that impacted you to be a helper. What did, what was it you were seeing?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Absolutely. So I saw a woman pour her life into the lives of other people.

And you know, what we can know about maids or domestic workers is that they don’t receive a lot of compensation often for the work that they do. And sometimes the families that they work with are not the most agreeable. But what I saw was a woman who had, first and foremost a relationship with the family that [00:04:00] she worked with, and thankfully it was a good relationship and that relationship fed into her life.

And she was able to feed into their lives, and then it fed into my life as well. So it was really about relationship, reciprocal relationship and healthy relationships, which we know Kim, everything happens in the context of relationship, terribly important. So that was a big impetus for the book.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: So tell me a little bit about what you hope parents learn from this.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So the goal would be to absolutely, um, lean into your children about the careers that they want, um, as they mature. Help them to think out loud about that profession or those things that they want to do. But more importantly, and I think what’s un underneath all of this is the type of person you are doing the work.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So my grandmother was committed to doing amazing work for the people she had the opportunity to serve, and reciprocally the family had the [00:05:00] opportunity to compensate her in a way that was meaningful for individuals doing that kind of work at that time, particularly as a woman of color. So what’s underneath then is how we do the work and how we engage with each other, which goes back to the notion of relationship.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Yeah. i’ve been looking at it right here. And, you know, I think here’s one of the things that and I’m sure you and I are gonna have more conversations about this is sometimes I feel like children’s books, they don’t always paint parents in the best light. Do you know what I’m talking about? Like sometimes the parents are learning the lesson along with the child. Mm-hmm. And I have this real pull towards books that present socially, emotionally talented parents.

Yes. And I noticed actually in all of your books, that family was the center of it. This isn’t a family going out to learn a lesson. This is a child learning a lesson in the [00:06:00] home from the parents. And I don’t know why sometimes we do that in children’s books where the parents have this thing, they also have to learn from some outside force.

Because certainly I know, here. At Hanna Perkins and, you know, you’ve been part of us for years and years and years. Mm-hmm. Um, the parents could not be more important. Right. You know, and so it is. Mm-hmm. A grandmother, a mother, you know, those moments within a family mm-hmm.

Where these messages are given to children and are demonstrated and are modeled and all of those kinds of things. Yes. Um, so I really appreciated that. Yes. Um, about the way you did this. OK. So that is helping hands, healing hands. Now the second one, I just love the name of this is Rocki-Grace and the speckled brown bananas.

Yes. So where does that come from?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So that really comes from an experience that I had, an ongoing experience that I had with all of my children in either making banana bread or zucchini bread. And I’m just gonna drop a, a really quick [00:07:00] narrative in. I have to tell you, there was an occasion when we were making zucchini bread.

Zucchini bread has nutmeg in it and cinnamon. One day we put too much nutmeg in the zucchini bread. We baked it anyway, it was terribly hot. I had no idea that nutmeg could make a flavor, uh, such as heat come through a bread and my children will never forget: Do you remember the hot zucchini bread?

So that really does just feed into the experience of, of learning together, Kim, of making mistakes together, and it’s OK. So we look back on that experience with laughter quite frequently.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Certainly one of the things that I get from it is the importance of engagement.

So let’s just talk a little, maybe even a little theoretically about what we think developmentally happens when we engage in what people would consider to be such a simple task. That cooking together or baking together, or gardening together, or [00:08:00] vacuuming together, or, I think we can extend that to a lot of those daily activities that create these special moments. And so what, as a parent, did you pull from that special moment?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So Kim, I’m very process oriented. It’s about the process of learning the task, and underneath that it’s about the process of building the relationship.

Right? Especially when things don’t necessarily go right during the process of learning to make banana bread or zucchini bread, we all learn from that. It’s about the process of when the child does everything perfect and they can be praised for that. Right. So it’s both and; when they do really well, when they make mistakes, when there’s middle ground, it’s always about the process.

Mm-hmm. The process of learning, the process of relationship building, both of those are occurring at the exact same time. Both require a lot of patience from the parents, [00:09:00] a lot of breathing, a lot of saying we’ll get it right next time.

So it’s OK.

It’s OK as we learn together.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So even if the zucchini bread’s a little spicy this time.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: That’s OK.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: We’ve learned something about nutmeg, haven’t we? Yeah. Like there’s, you know, there’s some, there’s some science in it and how you handle frustration and modulate all of that for yourself then translates to how children then go off out into the world and manage patience and frustration.

And, you know, I kind of have visions of just, you know, staring at the oven, waiting for the results and how long is this gonna take and how long can we be patient to get the results of our labor? Yes. And um. All of those little, I guess we’d call them teachable moments, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And Kim, you and I know that children remember these things in a feeling state.

Mm-hmm.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: There’s that piece. And there’s [00:10:00] also the smell, the, the aroma I should say, that’s coming from the oven. And all of those pieces, they come together, right, to create this amazing experience that children don’t soon forget because their bodies remember.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s so far it takes the piece of parenting that goes so far beyond what I think many of us can get caught up in, especially if it’s difficult times, um, that you know, you, you care for, you clothe, you house, you pay the bills, you make the meals. Life can get really hard sometimes and it can feel difficult to take all the extra time that’s necessary. And what do you say, what do you say to those parents where they’re like, oh, I would love to have time to bake with my child, or I would love to have time, but…

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So for those parents who struggle with that timing piece, and that occurs particularly when children are either in their very early years or in their adolescent years for [00:11:00] whatever reason. So what we try to find are those moments that are work best for both the child and the parent, whether it be 10 minutes before we leave for school, or whether it be the last few minutes of the day when the child can really depend on, this will be mommy and me time, or this will be daddy and me time, or this will be auntie and me time, or whoever that caring adult is.

As long as the child and the parent know that there is a time that they can depend on, even if it’s not a protracted period of time, they can point to a dot on the horizon and say, that time is for me. That helps. Right? ’cause we are busy, we are all terribly stretched. And right now my children are their children are in those formative years and they say, mommy, it’s not fair.

You, you made it look so easy. I said, it was never easy, but you, you have to decide.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Well, you know what? I want to underline that. That’s such a beautiful sentiment that your children remember. [00:12:00] We hear this a lot, you know, like, “I never knew we didn’t have money, or you made it look so easy.”

And I think the message to parents in that statement isn’t, “Oh good, I covered up my anxiety attack really well.” It’s trying for parents now to remember in the moment that that’s not what your child is committing to memory. Correct. Your child isn’t committing to memory how busy you were.

They’re committing to memory the emotional and physical experience of that moment. And, and they’re very good at getting rid of some of those external stressors that we may be brought into the situation, right? And they don’t remember if it was a half an hour or an hour. They just remember the quality of that time.

And that’s what I think shows up in, you know, a statement like that. And I, I also want to talk about. Because you talked about making mistakes, but let’s also talk about perfection. [00:13:00] I think sometimes people will say, well, I don’t do that well. Like parents, like, well, I’m not really good at that, or I’m not really good at this.

And, and I think certainly in the days of social media when we see, quote unquote perfect families cooking together. Or like, you know, just like, oh, doing TikTok dances together, or whatever. That you can look at your family and say, well, we are imperfect. You know, or, I’m not a cook, I’m not a chef, or …

What would you say to those parents?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: So I would say be vulnerable. Your children are going to learn so much more from you in those vulnerable moments. I can remember so many occasions when things just didn’t go right. If mommy had a migraine and we had to stop and mommy didn’t feel well and I had to say, can you quick grab a bucket?

Or whatever. My children remember these moments. When, do you remember when mommy didn’t feel good? And do you remember when we went to the zoo and this happened or that happened? So I would say to parents who. [00:14:00] Might struggle with perfectionism, be vulnerable. Your children are going to learn so much more from you if you are your authentic self.

Yes. Right? Yeah. Uh, being, being perfect is it’s, uh, a great untruth that we don’t want to message to our children.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Yeah. And. I know from my own like personal experience, like my, there were some things that my mother used to cook all the time and I have those really strong sensory memories to them.

And uh, one of them is coq au vin, right? And I went to a restaurant once and I’m like, oh, there’s Coq au vin on the menu. Ooh, childhood. And I ordered it and this very fancy dish came out. And I’m like, what is this? This is not what my mother made with mushroom soup and pearl onions and, you know, cooking sherry.

Yes. And you know what do I prefer? Do I prefer fancy? No, I want my mother’s recipe

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Exactly.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: In all of its imperfection and, and simpleness and budget.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It’s so meaningful. So meaningful.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: [00:15:00] Yeah. Oh, that’s lovely. OK, I want to move on now to the third book.

Which I have, oh, I have so many questions about this one too. OK. So the third book is “Meet Rocki-Grace, the Bright Girl with the Bray Eyes.” Let me just hold this one up and then we’re also gonna get a link to it. From the minute I picked it up, I’m like, how on earth. What’s going on there? How did you come up with bray eyes as a way to talk about loving your differences?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Yeah, so actually Kim, you may not have noticed, but it is very personal. Oh. If you are to look directly into my eyes or into the eyes of my grandmother on my maternal side, if we go up my maternal side, what we see is a change in the color of the eyes with a gray halo on the outer part of the iris where the inner part of the iris remains brown, but over time, the whole iris will turn gray.

Very interesting phenomenon. It happens in a very specific West African tribe. [00:16:00] We are not exactly sure. I have heard that it has to do with a safe buildup of cholesterol in the body, and I know that’s really technical.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: That’s OK.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It was about me learning about why the color of my eyes were changing.

Now, children do not have gray eyes. There is a little girl inside of me and she has ah, gray/brown eyes, and so that’s what that’s about.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: What a beautiful way to talk about sort of the acceptance of uniqueness. Like that’s what I got out of it. Yes. What else did you want people to get out of this story?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Exactly. And if you take a quick look at the cover, you will notice that Rocki-Grace has we’ll call a challenge on her left hand, her two…

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: No, I didn’t even notice. She absolutely does.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: She does.

And we didn’t point it out. In that way, but with her arms extended, it is an indication of Rocki-Grace’s [00:17:00] acceptance of who she is through and through and through.

And we explain if we would like to call it a disability on the back cover just a little bit to help children and families understand how we can be our authentic selves no matter what we look like, no matter what our physical experience is.

I wanted to mention also that one of the things that I loved is in the back of the Speckled Brown Banana book, you have the recipe…

yes.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: …for speckled brown banana bread, and in the back of Meet Rocki-Grace you have a little exercise.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Yes.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: And I have that’s something that I’ve also thought of is that I think it’s helpful to have, like, there’s little activities to reinforce the lesson that comes along with accepting ourselves for who we are. But you also venture into feelings.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Yes.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: And so the activity at the back is on the one side, there’s all these happy, [00:18:00] sad, angry, loving, frustrated, mad, content. Great word to learn by the way, content. And then what do I do when I feel this way?

And these conversation starters, and then you have these great vocabulary words with definitions. Yes. So it’s a lovely story. But it’s also so useful. Did you mean it as a conversation starter? Is that what you’re thought?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Well, it’s interesting that you framed it that way. Right? That’s what I, yeah, that I love that. So I hadn’t thought of them as conversation starters, but they absolutely are.

It was really just about learning and being able to name feelings, right? What do I do when I feel happy? What do I do when I’m angry? So naming the feeling and connecting it with the behavior, which we know is often a disconnect. So to help children or help parents begin to bridge that gap between those two pieces.

And also just the learning of new words. But I, I think the other piece is. I, I like being unconventional. We tell children you can’t color in books. You can’t draw in books unless [00:19:00] it’s a coloring book. No. Get your marker. Get your crayon. Let’s use this for your goal.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Your learning.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: I had a professor who once told me that a book is not well read until it has dog-eared corners.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Absolutely right. I agree 200%. Absolutely.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Yeah. Books are not meant to remain pristine. They’re meant to be reread, reread, reread, reread. And you know, I could see this book being the kind of book that is read and reread over and over and over again. Um, and being well used because the thing that has always been fascinating to me. And we see this in, we see it in movies. Mm-hmm. And I know I’ve talked to parents about it with regard to movies that children want to watch over and over and over again.

Those movies usually indicate that there is something going on in the movie that is speaking to a need in the child to resolve something, to, to master something. Mm-hmm. To, to master something. Sometimes it’s the scary part [00:20:00] or, sometimes it’s something about the character, and I think the same is true in books that get read over and over and over again.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It’s true.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: And so if you have a child who has a difference, a uniqueness from the people around them, I think this is the kind of book that a child goes back to and reprocesses and reprocesses and so what do you say to parents? Like, I, I know what I would say. I want to know what you would say to parents who are like, Ugh, they, I read the same book four times a day.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Exactly. I love it. And I would say, as you just said, there is something meaningful that your child has connected with in this particular book. And I will share with you that one of my dear friends and colleagues at the school of social work said to me—her children are in their formative years— she said, they say, “can you read Speckled Brown again?”

That’s what they call it, speckled Brown. So they read Speckled Brown over and over again, and what will be interesting is to have her ask the [00:21:00] question, what is it that you like about Speckled Brown? Or what’s hard about Speckled Brown? What sticks out for you? Right.

But I, I agree. The child is connecting with something in the story, and as long as they need it, we can allow that story to remain present in their lives.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: So I just love these and I encourage everybody to take a look and to get these.

So I got mine off of Amazon. Yes. But I also Googled: Adrianne Fletcher author. Author children’s books. And they came up on Google as well. Is there, are there other places to get these books?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Absolutely.

1. So you can go to Kendall Hunt.

So Kendall Hunt publishes curriculum for K through 12 and for higher ed. So Kendall Hunt is a good place to start, or Innovative Inc. Either of those will get you to all of the publications under my name.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: OK. So let me stick in yet one more commercial and then we’re gonna do one more [00:22:00] piece. If you are a parent in the Cleveland area and like what you hear about our approach to child development, early education, you might consider enrollment for your little ones in our toddler group or our preschool.

Hanna Perkins was an early pioneer in social emotional education way back in the 1950s when it was still called nursery school. Our school has rolling admissions, so we’re always giving tours and taking applications. You can get lots of more information at our website. Hanna Perkins.org for our listeners, that’s H-A-N-N-A-P-E-R-K-I-N-S.org.

OK, Adrianne, we have a segment in every podcast that we like to call “Let’s Rephrase That,” where we talk about things grownups say to children, and we come up with alternatives that are maybe what we consider to be a little more useful. Are you game.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: I’m game. Let’s do it.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: All right. ​ Think I have one that you will have something to say about. So here’s the situation. Georgia is the tallest kid [00:23:00] in the second grade. She just came home from school upset that some of the children have taken to calling her giraffe. Mom tries to soothe her by saying, don’t worry about it.

They’re just saying that because they’re jealous. How do you think there might be a better way to handle the situation and how might you suggest?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Right. So maybe, maybe Georgia, I would remind her of who she is. You are a girl and you are tall. I would remind her that there are probably other tall people, and I know I’m not rephrasing this, using this, um, but I’m just thinking out loud here.

So I,

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: oh, this is what we do. This is how it goes.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Perfect. So I would validate her height. I would validate her height as something amazing. I would take the time to explore other tall people. I would also take a little bit of time, believe it or not, to learn about giraffes. Why don’t we dig into giraffes right now?

Let’s find out about their strength and their stature and why they’re tall and what that helps them to do, and then we can think [00:24:00] about what your height helps you to do that perhaps maybe other children can’t do. This may be a gift.

That was brilliant. I’m just sort of sitting with that for a second because I think, again, I always go back to this idea that what we are asking parents to do here is slow down their parenting.

Yes. Because to say, “Oh, they’re just jealous” it seems like, well, that’s the fastest way to get my child to not feel whatever they’re feeling. Right, but by, by slowing down the pace of that and allowing your child to

have the feeling

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: we first have to have that feeling Right. To first have the feeling.

And then to really think about their uniqueness. And think about the positives of being who they are. Now I’m projecting that child into their future. The [00:25:00] next day, five years from now, whatever. And how does that child now handle those moments differently?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Exactly.

Exactly, and I really love that you said that I completely left out feel the feelings and a way for that child to respond when that name calling comes back is that, “that really makes me sad or it really makes me angry.” Tell that child that— the name caller — and that puts a whole different spin on it, right?

To name the feeling and let someone else know, this is what I’m feeling as a result of what you said.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Yeah. We don’t do enough of that, I don’t think, in general, in the world.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Correct.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: And I think if we’re feeling good about our height or our body type or any of our uniquenesses or our differences. Yes. You know, somebody could say, well, you’re tall, you’re like a giraffe. Mm-hmm. And what would happen if you were like, thank you.

If you were the [00:26:00] person who could sort of see that nod as what it was meant to be, it kind of takes the air out of the reaction they were hoping to get it.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It really does.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Because I think what we understand about bullying is that there is a vulnerability in the bully that they’re covering up by making somebody else feel small so that they can feel bigger or better.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Exactly.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: And. If that doesn’t, you know, if that doesn’t work necessarily, um, then it kind of takes the air out of the bullying. I don’t want to oversimplify those kinds of situations. But I certainly agree with you that slowing down and having the conversation and finding the positives, is so important.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It is.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: With regard to body image of all kinds.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: Exactly. Exactly.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: One more question. I have to jump back because now this question leads me to another question about your book, which is the [00:27:00] difference that she has with her hand. Why was it important to you to add that piece in?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It’s kind of interesting. It, it, it came about by accident. If I’m being fully transparent. It came about by accident because uh, someone had made a comment about the way one of the pictures looked, and I, instead of feeling badly about this piece of art that I hadn’t noticed that there was this discrepancy in, I decided to spin it on its head and turn it into something good.

Actually it occurred because of a… I want to say an attack on me and the artwork, and I thought, wow. And I felt, I felt my feelings. I felt really bad and I named the feeling, and I kid you not the idea came out of nowhere. Or so I thought, but the idea came, use it. It looks like two fingers are missing. We’re gonna capitalize on that.

And it [00:28:00] also is going to be a big help to children who do have different physical challenges.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Because here’s what I, here’s what I like about it, and here’s why I didn’t notice it, quite honestly, is because it’s not the topic of the book.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It is not the topic of the book.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: It just is.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It just is. It’s who Rocki-Grace is.

And as you can see, with her arms extended, she embraces who she is. Yeah. And her parents have taken the time to help her to accommodate writing or drawing or holding or doing whatever she needs to do in order to be successful in life. Yeah.

And she doesn’t have to hide it. It’s just who she is.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: It’s just who she is.

It’s not even the main topic of conversation.

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: It is not.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Awesome. Well, I look forward to whatever is coming next for you. Do you know what it is or is it still a secret?

Adrianne M. Crawford Fletcher, Ph.D.: No, actually. Um, the next book is “Goodbye For Now,” and it is a book about children, um, dealing with grief and the loss of actually a parent.

And following that one is a, a, a funner book called “Too Hot for Socks.” So those [00:29:00] two are in queue right now.

Kimberly Bell, Ph.D.: Awesome. Oh, that’s so cool. All right, well, we’ll have you back. We’ll talk about those books too. Sounds good, Kim. Thank you. And continuing conversation. OK. Thank you so much Adrianne, for coming by today and having this conversation.

I always love talking with you. All right. For now, however, that is our time for today. If our conversations here have raised questions for you, or if you have parenting concerns of your own, please share them with us. We are happy to answer your questions on air when we can.

You can send questions by email to hiddenlanguageofchildren@gmail.com . We hope that everybody here that is listening or watching, has enjoyed this conversation and found something to take away from it.

The Hidden Language of Children Podcast is a production of nonprofit Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in beautiful Shaker Heights, Ohio. Our audio video editor is Greg Romano, our producer is Bob Rosenbaum. And Dan Ratner is our consulting producer. If you like this podcast, please subscribe to hear future episodes and share it with friends and [00:30:00] family.

I am Dr. Kimberly Bell, and we will see you next time.