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Transcript of Episode 6:

Ep 6: Behaviors Related to a Child’s Newly Developing Conscience

[00:00:00] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Hi, and welcome to the Hidden Language of Children podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Kimberly Bell at the Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in Shaker Heights, Ohio. If you’ve ever wondered what’s really going on in your young child’s mind, this podcast is for you. We created it to help parents and caregivers tune in to the inner life of children, that constant churning of feelings and emotions that goes on inside every one of us.

Emotions can be wonderful. They can also make us say or do things we regret. As grownups, we know it’s important to be in control of them. Children have the same powerful feelings, without the life experience to understand or manage them. If you think about it, the first thing they have to learn is that those big feelings are normal.

They aren’t alone in having them. At Hanna Perkins, we work with families to help children know how to handle their own feelings, to become the boss of themselves. Because the sooner a child [00:01:00] can learn to be the master of their own feelings, the better they’ll do at the other hard work of growing up.

Today, we’re going to be talking about conscience development: morality, doing the right thing, making good choices. As parents, we all want our children to grow up to be good citizens who treat people well and are considered kind. So we want to talk a little bit about how we get there.

To help me with that today, I’m welcoming Anita Eddie, a clinical social worker who has been working with families for more than 30 years. Our topic is a big one. So let’s get started. Thanks for being here today, Anita. Welcome.

Thank you.

So, conscience development. We could talk for hours and hours about this, you and I, but we don’t have that much time. So, why don’t we start with [00:02:00] the toddler and the first signs of saying no or hearing no and how they react to that.

[00:02:11] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Well, that is very difficult for toddlers, as you well know, because their life has been very gratifying for a very long time. Their needs have been met by their primary caregivers, mothers, fathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles. And so when that first no comes along, it is internally, emotionally, a very big one for a toddler.

So you’re going to see many big behaviors that you might not have seen in a very long time from your toddler and that’s where I think we coin that really unhelpful term, which is the terrible twos, when in fact they’re really not terrible. And I’ve heard some early childhood providers call them the terrific twos [00:03:00] because they’re growing and they’re curious and they’re trying to understand what’s going on in the world.

One of the things that you have said to me. is this idea of the child being surprised that they can hurt someone. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Yes. Well as you know, I try to think of it as this really strong energy, but toddlers can be pretty aggressive. They’re not quite, and that’s sort of a misnomer, I think, because they don’t know it’s aggression.

They, it’s just a push, a drive a willingness to sort of go beyond their typical gentle selves. So when they, when they become something a little more than gentle, it is a huge surprise for them. It may be a big one for us, but it’s a really big one for them. They I would, I would hazard to guess that they feel very out of [00:04:00] control.

And gently setting limits, not meeting them with their own drive or push, and understanding that empathic words can help them at that moment is, I think, something I would suggest to any parent or any caregiver.

[00:04:21] Dr. Kimberly Bell: That can be, and that can be really hard. Your kid has just pulled your hair, hit you in the face, bit you, right?

Any of those things.

[00:04:29] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Right.

[00:04:29] Dr. Kimberly Bell: It’s a very hard time for a parent to be like, Oh, now I am working on conscience development. And the right thing to do is because it spurs on your own aggression, right?

[00:04:39] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Right.

[00:04:40] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So let’s give some examples. So what would you have a parent say to a child who has just hit them out of an impulse of aggression?

[00:04:49] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: OK. Well Before they say they have to kind of pull themselves together. That would be my first suggestion. Even if you have to maybe step [00:05:00] away for a little while — hopefully someone’s, someone is there to sort of step in — and then go back to the child and try to understand what spurred them on to bite or to hit or to kick.

And again, I think, parents, caregivers don’t quite understand that children really do understand the words that you are saying to them, the descriptions, the ideas that you’re imparting on them about their behavior. So if you could come up with some very simple words like, “Oh, that really hurt me, but I know you really didn’t mean to do it,” would help.

You’re going to be honest about your feeling because they need to know that. But you’re also going to let them know that you understand that they really didn’t have control at that time. [00:06:00] Yes, they’re young, but they understand.

[00:06:03] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Mm hmm. Yeah.

You know, I, I think that’s an interesting point and I wanna, I wanna put that in here someplace.

This idea of when is too young. And when do we overestimate? Like I think sometimes with parenting of young children, the needle gets kind of messed up. Like sometimes we assume that they are doing things on purpose when they’re not. And sometimes we think that they can’t understand our words when they can.

So what would you… what would you say about that? Like, when are those times when we think we’re, we’re underestimating children?

[00:06:42] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: When they first start articulating words, you can start beginning to understand what they’re communicating in their words and their behaviors at the same time. I don’t think one is exclusive of the other.

I think, I [00:07:00] think behavior and their mumblings or their coos or their cries can be understood. We always, especially when they’re crying, want to understand why they’re crying. Or maybe sometimes we want to stop the crying, but I think it’s more effective or more helpful to try and understand. And they may not know.

Aren’t we always trying to figure it out? Do we need to change the diaper? Do they need to go potty? Have they pottied on themselves? Are they hungry? Are they tired? We’re always trying to figure it out. So to just continue to put words helps you get to the point where, when it’s talking about hurting and, and trying to stop them or help them understand why they’re attempting to hurt or why this aggression or feeling is so strong, is important.

So just keep talking. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:07:54] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And I think the, yeah, that idea that children can understand language and, [00:08:00] and specific words even before they can speak those particular words.

[00:08:03] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yep.

[00:08:04] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And especially feeling words. So basically what we’re saying is it’s never too early to try to help your child identify the feeling that they’re having.

[00:08:12] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Absolutely.

[00:08:13] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So then let’s talk about those moments. So those are the moments I, I always — you know, the one I always picture is when parents are like, “Oh, they’re sitting in the backseat of the car. They’re not listening to us.” And they’re always listening to us. Right?

[00:08:25] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yes.

[00:08:25] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And then, so those times when we overestimate, I think, tends to be with regard to, like, the intention behind a behavior.

Mm hmm.

Like they’re doing something on purpose. Can we think of an example of a time where parents think they’re doing it on purpose?

[00:08:45] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: The first time going to the playground, right, and the toddler goes up the slide the wrong way.

And the parents are like, Oh, look, they’re climbing this. And then somebody else comes up the correct way on, on this, on the slide. And so it’s now [00:09:00] time to tell this young person, OK, we have to get off and do it the right way. And they’re like, Oh no, no, no. This was OK a moment ago. Why must we change?

Just an introductory idea of learning to do things “the right way” if you want to use those words. Sure. Yeah.

[00:09:19] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Yeah. So it, and it, I think some people who are listening might be thinking, well, what does this have to do with morality or what, you know, how is this? But I think the message that we’re sending here is that the developing conscious conscience starts at this very young age.

Yes. And one of the things that certainly we do here at Hanna Perkins is we don’t use the word conscience so much, probably why I just stumbled over it. We don’t use that word so much.

[00:09:48] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: No, we don’t.

[00:09:49] Dr. Kimberly Bell: We use the phrase: Inside Helper.

Yes. So talk a little bit about your, about the Inside Helper.

[00:09:55] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Oh, well, interesting.

I don’t remember the [00:10:00] specific story, but I do know that there was a story in the Inside Helper book where there was a youngster that pulled a ponytail on another youngster and to help that youngster sort of make up for what they had done to somebody they probably were friends with, had fun with. And suddenly there’s a yank on the hair.

And it’s like, well, where’s that coming from? Well, impulse, you could call it. Fun, you could call it, maybe. Teasing, you can call it. But there’s a moment in which, maybe seconds after, the child is like, “Oh!” They have that ” Oh!” feeling, and it comes from the inside. It doesn’t come from the outside. It comes from the inside.

So there are adults around, hopefully, to help them manage the Inside Helper, not being so harsh, not being so mean, and helping the youngster say to that [00:11:00] person, I’m really sorry for pulling your hair. And just make it that simple: I’m really sorry.

[00:11:07] Dr. Kimberly Bell: I want to take us back and focus on this idea of inside versus outside, right?

So when we’re talking about conscience development, the lessons that the parents teach have to go into the child so that the child can use them when the parents aren’t around. So what does that mean when we say that parents need to set a good example?

[00:11:29] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: The one that comes to mind, I think, has to do with maybe truth, right? So, maybe when there is a pregnancy, we have a toddler and we have a mother and a mother is expecting a new baby, and you know this, you know, the question, where do babies come from?

Right. So what’s the answer? What’s the answer to help the child [00:12:00] develop a conscience that is as truthful as it can be. And at Hanna Perkins, we talk about a special baby place. We don’t say the stomach because little ones have fantasies about how babies get in stomachs.

They might even wonder how the baby got in the special baby place. But we can say that mothers have that place. Not little ones, not dads, not you, not your brother, just mom. And I think sometimes that truth is helpful from the parent. Santa Claus is another one. Easter Bunny is another one.

[00:12:43] Dr. Kimberly Bell: We can do a whole episode on Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

[00:12:47] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yes.

Yes. And yes, go ahead.

[00:12:50] Dr. Kimberly Bell: This, well, this, I, well, so this idea, I think this idea of if you want a truthful child, then you need to be truthful with the child.

[00:12:56] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yes.

[00:12:57] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Is, is so, is so [00:13:00] poignant. And so in addition to that, this idea of, of modeling good management of feelings, you know, telling the truth and I, I think one of the big concerns of parents is aggression.

And I, I love what you have to say about what happens when you meet aggression with aggression. So let’s talk about that.

[00:13:23] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yes. Well, as you know, many parents subscribe, I think, without thinking to physical discipline. I think it’s typically when the parent is very frustrated, very angry, thinking that their words aren’t working, that they subscribe to hitting.

But as you know, if you tell a little one. No hitting and you hit. How can that be? How can that be? How can that not be something that is, I’ll say it this way, [00:14:00] how can it be OK for the parent to do that and me not OK to go to school and hit, hit a child when I get frustrated, hit a peer when I get frustrated.

That is so difficult when parents subscribe to that, that way of managing a child’s behavior, which of course we don’t believe in because we know behavior is communication. We’re not going to stop a behavior. We’re going to try and understand it. Hard for parents though.

[00:14:27] Dr. Kimberly Bell: There’s a couple more things I want to talk about.

I want to talk about guilt, and I want to talk about curiosity versus misbehavior. So which one of those do you want to talk about first?

[00:14:38] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Well, I really like the curiosity. OK, let’s talk about that. Yes, I love the curiosity idea because curiosity is just a form of learning. I know there’s, there’s this idea that learning is only formal.

But learning is informal, especially through curiosity. And children are curious about all kinds of things. Because why? They’ve [00:15:00] only been in the world one, two, three years. Three years, four years, five years. So they’re curious. They’re wondering. They’re asking questions. Some of the questions that children ask in public about people they see.

You know, differences, right? That person is not like me. They’re not like us. So, out loud, they’re saying. Oh, mom, that woman is pretty fat. Oh my God. Right? Out loud, they say this. And so the parents of course react strongly because the child’s being curious.

[00:15:35] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So, OK. So, so far then, you know, we, we’ve talked about these very early years, right?

But some of our listeners have a child that’s like six or seven right now. And they’re like, whoops, you know, I don’t know if I did all that. And maybe the child is coming home and saying, the teacher hates me. That’s sort of one of the big ones. So let’s talk about young [00:16:00] guilt and the harshness of, of the Inside Helper.

[00:16:04] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yes, well so you know, you mentioned six year old old, which are, they’re sort of moving into this place where those aggression, excitement, things of that nature are not as big as they used to be. There’s some a little bit manageable. They’re in the phase of learning and cooperating and being social.

And there’s so many other developmental things that are going on. Yeah, feeling guilty at that time, I think six or seven. Again, I think it’s time where parents expect more from a child than they actually can deliver on. So again, if a child, you know, comes home with someone else’s toy, right, from first grade, and you’re like, where did that come from?

Oh, well, you know, it was just laying there and I picked it up. Oh, well to overreact, to think of it as stealing or they might even hide it [00:17:00] under their pillow for a little while, you know, Oh, that’s lying. Oh, you know, to think of it that way is to, to not be able to help educate the child on the way maybe things in their family should be done.

Every family is not going to develop a conscience in the same way. Mm hmm. How it’s done in our family. So we’re going to take that back to school. We’re going to talk to our friend or talk to the teacher about who it belongs to or that kind of thing. But, you know, not go there so they can be put in detention or something of that sort, you know, it’s like if they took something from a store and you discovered it’s in the bag, you take it back, you talk to the store owner, you help the child explain to them, you know, I made a mistake. It wasn’t mine. I’m giving it back.

[00:17:54] Dr. Kimberly Bell: So in these early years, I think what you and I are talking about is [00:18:00] that the best conscience development moments happen in teachable moments, not in moments of punishment or discipline or grounding or spanking or there, there are, there is a place for consequences.

There are consequences to your behavior, certainly,

[00:18:15] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Right.

[00:18:16] Dr. Kimberly Bell: I’m a huge fan of what, of restitution, right? How can you fix the mistake that you’ve made? So let’s talk about how do we know when we need to get help when our child’s conscience is not going in the direction that we wanted to go to the point where we need to get some help?

[00:18:33] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Well, I would say multiple occurrences, of course, in school, at home. I would say if a parent tried their traditional — except, you know, no spanking — their traditional ways of helping their child understand what they did maybe was not right. If some of the things you have in place say, you know, some parents are very much into natural [00:19:00] consequences, if natural consequences are not working, or reminders, gentle reminders about what the rules are then I would think it’s time to maybe check in with someone a professional that might be able to help you understand the behavior, right? That’s what we do. Understand the behavior, understand where there may be a stuck place as we think of it in the child’s development.

Because, remember, if we’re talking about a six year old, that’s six years of development with all kinds of things happening inside and outside of the child. And so we’ll need to figure some things out.

[00:19:39] Dr. Kimberly Bell: When, when we’re talking about this very early conscience development, I think it’s so important for parents to understand how harsh it can be. And that, when they make a little medium or big mistake that they can feel like all [00:20:00] mistakes are big mistakes and could be punishable by complete loss of love?

Is that the way you would say it? Is there another? How else would you say that? Like, how else would you describe that?

[00:20:16] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: I would say punishable by their own guilt, depending on how internalized that guilt is. Because, as you know, children have probably had many guilty pleasures that they have hidden. So if you have that on top of a harsh conscience on top of “I haven’t pleased my parents,” I mean, it’s just going to be really big for them and hard to dig themselves out of that hole.

It’s a big, it’s a big gaping hole that they just keep going down into until someone can give them some relief. A few words can give them relief. Relief. I like your idea, small, medium, and big. [00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Because, yeah, I think we work on that a lot here at Hanna Perkins is the understanding of what the difference is between small, medium, and big mistakes.

And I, I think that’s, it’s interesting because I wonder if parents often are so worried about developing the conscience and doing right and following the rules that they don’t spend as much time saying, hey, you can be a little kinder to yourself here.

[00:21:28] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Correct. I think many adults know, because I have worked with adults, how hard they can be on themselves and how self defeating that can be if you’re trying to feel good about who you are.

It’s hard.

That’s another good topic, self esteem.

[00:21:51] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Every time you and I talk, we come up with new topics. We will definitely do this again. OK. Any, I mean, any thoughts as we wrap up, we’re about to go [00:22:00] into a new segment, well, new to you, that we like to call, “Let’s Rephrase That.”.

[00:22:09] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: OK.

[00:22:10] Dr. Kimberly Bell: All right. So what we do in this section of the podcast is I’m going to give you an example of a time where a parent might impulsively say something that is not necessarily helpful to conscience development, and we’re going to help them rephrase that.

You ready? OK. You’re tidying up around the house and notice that someone has pushed through the screen door. It had to be your child, because nobody else was home. When confronted, the child admits it, and you say, now I have to fix it. What were you thinking when you did that? Why is that not helpful?

[00:22:54] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: If they’re heading down the rabbit hole, that’s not going to get them out of it.

OK. So, [00:23:00] yes, I think you mentioned it earlier, maybe the parent can say to them, small, medium, big mistake. Let’s see if we can fix it. Let’s go to the hardware store and get a little piece of screen to put over the hole. What a relief that would be for the child, for them to engage them. What do you call it?

A little support of that conscience development. Coming from the parent. It’s sort of like hurdle help, you know, they’re trying to get over a hurdle and you give them a little help and helps them be a little kinder to themselves. So, you know, “Let’s, let’s fix that” instead of saying, “Now I have to fix it.”

[00:23:44] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Yeah, that’s the piece of that, that I keyed in on as well. Not just the, what were you thinking as if they, you know, again, we, we come back to these two concepts of what does it mean to do something on purpose? That child may have been experimenting and doing a little science [00:24:00] experiment and, and, and ripped the screen, right?

There could have been some science experiment going on. That’s the curiosity piece we talked about earlier.

[00:24:11] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Right.

[00:24:11] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Or the child could have been moving very quickly and not been aware of their body in space completely and come crashing through the screen. And then felt very, very deeply guilty and harsh about it and didn’t tell you, right, until you found out.

Like, that’s what goes through my mind when I hear this little scenario, like all the possible ways that it could have started and gotten to this point. I say this parent’s not doing a bad job because the child admits that they did it the first place. Correct. Right? Like they’re doing a pretty good job there.

But. Yeah, the thing I think you’re right, we haven’t touched on is this idea of child, a child being not just a breaker, but a fixer.

[00:24:48] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Right.

[00:24:49] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And I think for children that we see in therapy that are having a problem with behavior, or conscience, is that, I think parents might be surprised how much time we [00:25:00] spend trying to get the child to actually be easier on themselves.

It feels like a contradiction to what they might be bringing their child in for. And I think, yeah, I think here at Hanna Perkins, we all agree that children are capable of quite a bit. So it’s not a surprise for us to be like, well, why spackle that wall with you? We’re not saying it’s going to be done perfect.

Right. But their insides will feel better.

[00:25:27] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Definitely.

[00:25:29] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Lovely. That was a good one. OK. Questions from our listeners. This is another little section. You ready for this one?

[00:25:40] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: I hope so.

[00:25:40] Dr. Kimberly Bell: OK. We are always glad to get questions from our listeners. So when time allows, we answer them in the podcast. I want to start a chore chart for my kids to teach them responsibility.

I’m thinking of paying them for the chores they do to teach them about money. What are some age appropriate [00:26:00] jobs for a six year old and a nine year old? How much should I pay them? And should I pay them the same or pay the older one more?

[00:26:07] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: For some reason I have a little bit of a question about why they would be paid for their chores.

[00:26:13] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Same here.

[00:26:15] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Why would they be paid for their chores? They’re part of, you know, the family, the community, so everybody’s kind of working together as a unit to take care of the house, right? So age appropriate chores for little ones. I’ve seen six year old. I’ve seen, of course, in our classroom sweeping doing all kinds of things, cleaning off the table.

And this is in preschool. So, you know, I think Anything that you think the child can manage and you can make it simple and as we like to say you know, very small bits of work and chores would be appropriate. I mean, kids like to splash around in the water a little bit. [00:27:00] If you can tolerate that, they can wash a few dishes, right?

Or they can clean up after dinner if people still have dinner together. The bathrooms, I probably would think for older.

[00:27:10] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Yeah,

[00:27:10] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: it’s nine years old, you know, they can clean a sink or maybe a toilet. But I, I’m not sure about getting paid.

[00:27:18] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Yeah. I think, I think to help people understand why we’re both sort of having that reaction to that is I appreciate that parents are wanting them to learn about working, earning and and the value of money, and how to work with it and how to spend it. And I think getting allowances and things like that is such a part of our culture. One of the things I think is important for us to to comment on is that, In our thinking, chores are a part of growing up and feeling good on the inside because you are contributing to the family.

And so you are doing something to [00:28:00] contribute to the family. And so I think in terms of learning about money we tend to prefer that it be something other than chores,

[00:28:08] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Right.

[00:28:09] Dr. Kimberly Bell: Like maybe there’s an additional little project or something that they can get involved in, but that we should reserve chores for…

I don’t even think we really always use the term chores. We tend to think of them as responsibilities or, you know, just just family jobs. Everybody has a family job that they don’t get paid for.

[00:28:28] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Yes.

[00:28:29] Dr. Kimberly Bell: And so learning to make your bed. And I think the other thing I want to highlight and underline of what you said is this idea that a job for a child might be part of a job.

Right. Just cleaning the bathroom sink or just putting the pillows on their bed after mom makes it or unloading the dryer and, and. Not being able to do the entire job doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do some of the job, right? Right. [00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: Absolutely.

[00:29:02] Dr. Kimberly Bell: All right. I think that wraps it up for us today, Anita. Thank you so much for being with us.

I always appreciate talking with you and I’m sure we will see you again very, very soon.

[00:29:12] Anita M. Eddie, MA, ATR, MSSA, LISW-S: All right. You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

[00:29:15] Dr. Kimberly Bell: All right. OK. If you are finding the content of our podcast interesting, I want to talk to you about this book right here. It is the ultimate guide to understanding your child’s behavior.

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It’s easy reading with short chapters that are organized by common situations and it offers gentle and loving strategies for so many challenges that parents face. Timeless advice can bring out [00:30:00] that nurturing, patient, and resourceful parent that lives in all of us. Plus, every purchase supports the non profit Hanna Perkins Center.

Thank you for joining us. We are grateful for all of our listeners today. We hope you enjoyed this conversation and found it to be helpful when making parenting decisions appropriate for your child. The Hidden Language of Children podcast is a production of the non profit Hanna Perkins Center for Child Development in beautiful Shaker Heights, Ohio.

If you like this podcast, please subscribe to hear future episodes and share it with all your friends and family. We welcome your comments and your questions. You can contact us by email at thehiddenlanguageofchildren.org. For more links and information about our approach to healthy child development, or also to receive services for your child who might be struggling, please visit us at hannaperkins.org I’m Dr. Kimberly Bell, and we will see you next [00:31:00] time.